Home Forums General Discussion what to do when heat pumps are inadequate

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  • #1870
    Jo Wills
    Participant

    I received this email from a family in Fielding, does anyone have any suggestions from similar experience I could go back to them with? I am unsure of the outcome they want, but guessing they want some sort of compensation from previous installer or a free upgrade which is not something any of us would be getting involved in (and I doubt will ever happen). Because of their location we can’t even get someone in to provide an independent assessment of their home and heating needs – maybe there are other things contributing to his cooler temperatures.

    ‘My Heat Pump provider does not accept that the Heat Pump he installed 4 years ago is inadequate. I have sent him many temperature charts highlighting the low temperatures experienced on cold mornings but he insists that his figures are correct and that the Heat Pump is the right size. I have consulted a soliciter but without much luck. Three other Heat Pump providers have all agreed that the installed heat pump is not adequate. Any ideas?’

    Thoughts appreciated! The Hub seems to have gone a bit quiet, surely there must be some questions about there – if you use the Hub to figure them out everyone benefits!

    #1871
    Phil Squire
    Participant

    Standard rule of thumb is m3 of area needing heating multiplied by 0.05. Or 0.06 for uninsulated area.

    It’s a tough one. Consumer guarantees Act would come in here, i.e. he was sold something that wasn’t fit for purpose. Not sure of process but would have to present evidence to Small Claims Court I think, there’d be info on Consumer.org.nz

    Difficulty is that if the installer says that he quoted for the correct one but client went for cheaper one…

    #1872
    Jo Wills
    Participant

    It is a tough one for sure. He’s already contacted a solicitor, but they don’t appear to be interested – there are just so many variables that aren’t clear in the original email. I will suggest (again) consumer.org.nz but the niggle remains in my mind that maybe there are other factors causing the temperature in his house to be low – but how could a heat pump installer know that unless they have completed a full assessment (highly unlikely). Anyone fancy a trip to Fielding? This really just highlights how important a whole of house assessment can be. Because of course the other heat pump suppliers will tell him the other guy has got it wrong, they want him to buy their larger unit. It’s great CEN is receiving these queries (about 2 – 3 a week), and the sooner there are certified HPA’s all over the country the better. I will go back to him and run through the very basics with him (insulation, curtains, draft stopping, moisture extraction etc) and see how it goes. Thanks for your response Phil!

    #1873
    Ian McChesney
    Participant

    Hi Jo
    One way the home owner could get an ‘industry norm’ view on the adequacy of their heat pump for their particular circumstances is to go onto the EnergyWise site and put their details into the heating calculator (details are in the L2 Manual). They would have to also know what the rated output of their heat pump is at 0 degrees (or minus 1 or 2 degree if Fielding is particularly prone to frosts?). Anyway, it will give pretty much the same answer as Phil’s rule of thumb I think. If their heat pump spec is way off, this may provide them more solid ground to take it further, with the supplier directly in the first instance, or to the Disputes Tribunal if that is what they want to pursue. The Disputes Tribunal doesn’t involve lawyers; details are on the Ministry of Justice website.
    Ian

    #1874
    Jo Wills
    Participant

    Thanks for your response Ian – I think it’s time I stepped out of this one. He has been made an offer from the supplier via his solicitor and they are working through it that way. This isn’t our space to become involved in.

    I did find out that is a 4 year old house with no dampness issues (according to the owner) and it’s a saga that’s been going on for 4 years. From the sounds of it, he’s not going to let it just go away.

    #1875
    Scott Willis
    Participant

    The issues raised here are important however, and while I agree that it is not CEN’s place to be a consumer advocate in legal issues, it is the evidence based approach that homeowners can ideally use to stand up for their rights, should it come to a legal confrontation.

    At my own home, we had a legal issue some time ago that made me acutely aware of how challenging this space is. It related to some new double glazed windows we purchased, and the issues around the supply of windows, installation, leaking, windows not to spec, etc were so numerous that eventually (after failing to have any productive conversation with the supplier) we sought the advice of the local Citizen’s Advice Bureau. While their knowledge of building or technical issues was lacking, their understanding of the Consumer Guarantees Act was good, and their advocacy on our behalf was a great relief. However, we were still required to pay for a Building Consultant to provide an expert opinion – which we did – and get a builder to repair the worst of the main problem – which we did. By that stage, while we had what we were confident was a water-tight case, and an almost water-tight home, we were emotionally exhausted (the company was particularly confrontational) and elected not to invest in taking them to court.

    This situation made me very aware of how vulnerable many people are to unscrupulous suppliers (even those of us who have access to good information make mistakes) and how essential it is that independent advice is available and accessible. It continues to frustrate me that as a society we do not value the place of independent advice enough to resource it – doing so would not only help reduce fuel poverty, it would also direct economic activity towards useful ends – investment in appropriate solutions.

    #1876
    Norman Smith
    Participant

    Hi all, at the risk of returning to a theme canvassed in the past, I’m predicting photovoltaics will be/have become the new heat pumps when it comes to unscrupulous suppliers selling systems which fail to deliver what is promised.
    What, is anything, can CEN do about it?

    Have people seen this graph from the EA website?
    “Over 2,500 residential connections with solar generation (9MW) (www.emi.ea.govt.nz/r/0zwms)”

    Cheers, Norman

    #1877
    Scott Willis
    Participant

    Hi Norman,
    I don’t agree that this is in the same league, as the return photo-voltaics deliver in electricity generated is a simple estimation to make, and easily verifiable, but the financial return cannot be controlled as it is under political control. It is not hard for CEN members to clarify this to address enquiries, although I agree (if you’re suggesting this) that a simple CEN wide fact sheet with risks and benefits could be beneficial.

    What complicates the Solar question is that SEANZ does not appear to be an effective industry body, exercising controls and guidance for its members and further – there are many commentators out there who confuse financial return (a very variable and changeable element of any solar installation) with generation potential (and all the additional power this gives to households to introduce additional energy management systems, bring in electric transport and mobile storage, etc – becoming true prosumers).

    Personally with our need to rapidly reduce carbon emissions, I think we need to be very careful about the nature of our critiques – the increased proportion of solar on rooftops is pushing thinking about Smart Grids, and is pushing the (even more sensible) uptake by businesses and public institutions. See this article for example
    http://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/311723/school-seeks-permission-solar-power
    – and please ignore the quote attributed to me: our whole system when up and running will be a 1.5kW array, not each panel.

    Solar PV is mature technology, it produces electricity. We have to be careful about who we buy off and the quality of the technology and installation, but beyond that it is not too complicated.

    #1878
    Norman Smith
    Participant

    Hi Scott,

    I think the last time we disagreed on a matter of subtance it was where to buy the best latte in Dunedin! Watch this space.

    Norman

    #1880
    Norman Smith
    Participant

    Hi again Scott,

    Putting myself in the shoes of a would-be buyer/household, my position is that heat pumps and PV systems are basically the same value proposition – energy services at less cost.

    Both involve an investment of several thousands of dollars where the principal source of information and advice is the supplier whose bottom line is to sell a system.

    Both involve the assimilation of technical data by the household in an uneven contest; the salesperson will always knows more and can/will use that knowledge to get their needs met.

    Both have un-knowns (to the household) and even though these unknowns differ between heat pumps and PV, both have the potential to notably degrade the value of the investment.

    PV is complicated in the present environment and the current structure of the electricity market. In 2014 and for the forseable future PV will not reduce and may even add to our carbon emissions.

    In strict financial terms a standard PV system in a school, with less than 60% utilisation of electricity generated, is pretty unlikely to be a good investment.

    Rest assured I am not anti PV. In fact I’m presently managing initiatives to install large systems on several community facilities, with the help of a grunty/grumpy NPV-driven spreadsheet.

    Cheers. Norman

    #1881
    Scott Willis
    Participant

    Hi Norman,
    Its good that we can debate more than just coffee!
    For my last foray into this today I want to address your important points:

    1. “Both (Heat Pumps and solar PV) involve an investment of several thousands of dollars where the principal source of information and advice is the supplier whose bottom line is to sell a system.” Well, this may usually be the case, but isn’t always so, as when we advise on solar systems – we don’t receive any benefit from the advice we give and there are other sources of independent advice as well.

    2. “Both involve the assimilation of technical data by the household in an uneven contest; the salesperson will always knows more and can/will use that knowledge to get their needs met.” Again, this depends on the source of information, which is not always biased. I also think that conflating heat pumps and solar PV is a mistake, as building a generation asset is very different from purchasing a piece of technology that increases demand.

    3. “Both have un-knowns (to the household) and even though these unknowns differ between heat pumps and PV, both have the potential to notably degrade the value of the investment.” This is true, but then what doesn’t? i.e. buying an internal combustion engine car involves the risk of the unknown in that the oil prices are now very unstable and unpredictable, yet a car is a significant investment that ties up capital with no added value to a property, unlike solar PV and even heat pumps!

    4. “PV is complicated in the present environment and the current structure of the electricity market. In 2014 and for the forseable future PV will not reduce and may even add to our carbon emissions.” I would approach this very differently. We could wait until the electricity market is reformed to suit PV, we could wait until there was a feed-in tariff or Regulated Independent Power Purchase Agreement, but that might mean waiting for ever. Meanwhile, we can use what affordable energy surplus remains to install larger amounts of renewable generation. Tier 1 panels from respectable suppliers come with warranties and will last for 20 + years – it is hard to see how PV could add to carbon emissions, particularly if behaviour change occurs, as it always seems to, in a way that improves household energy productivity and reduces overall electricity demand while opening the door to electric motive power.

    5. “In strict financial terms a standard PV system in a school, with less than 60% utilisation of electricity generated, is pretty unlikely to be a good investment.” I don’t think that your estimate is accurate here nor your investment opinion in this instance. At my own property we have close to 60% utilisation of the electricity generated from our own 2kW system, and while my wife works in her studio on the property, our energy pull is far more restricted than that of the school and over a much longer day. The greatest part of school energy demand is during the daylight hours and while I haven’t gone into the school’s energy profile in detail I know the Board of Trustees, with some key analytical people, has thoroughly investigated the proposition and are of the opinion that it is now an extremely good investment.

    No, I certainly wouldn’t suggest you are anti PV, but you certainly do seem to have a very different experience and different way of looking at PV. Perhaps it costs more up north? Perhaps electricity is cheaper? Down here people are mostly working off real cost and experiencing real benefit, and it doesn’t seem so complicated. Still, I’m glad we can debate more than just coffee!

    Cheers, Scott

    #1883
    philgregg
    Participant

    I am with Norman on the comment that the rouges will enter the Solar PV market. The same happened with Solar Thermal, we continuously saw Fair Go getting involved. Ultimately it destroyed the consumers confidence, the industry is now close to dead. Nik & I have been spending a lot of time Presenting to different official groups, plus the general public to try and educate early in the piece. Solar PV is a great thing, we don’t want it to be tainted or regulated. Regulation costs the consumer…. Some how we need to build industry strength to either knock out the rouges or at least support the clients that get burnt by providing a solution that doesn’t cost them twice.

    We want to educate as the consumer is generally there own worse enemy. They get caught up in the hipe and don’t do the right research. They think all systems are equal and price or perceived production is the only measure.

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