Home Forums General Discussion What is the best way to insulate walls without removing the wall panels?

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  • #663
    Renee Rushton
    Participant

    Hi everyone,

    I’ve just had a query asking what the best way to insulate walls without removing the wall panels is. I’ve had a quick look and seen that UFFI is the most common, but also that Branz have reported it as a bit lacking in performance and other aspects.

    Does anyone know anything about the alternatives? I’ve seen a bit on Cellulose and poly-something foam balls …

    Thanks!

    Renee

    #664

    Hi Renee

    I presume you will have seen the info on the EECA energywise site? This is a good place to start.

    Dealing with walls is tricky without taking the lining off. Its also a common question and one advisors need to be equipped to respond to.

    I’m not in a position to advise you on this, but I know others deal with the question a lot.

    Can anyone give Renee guidance about responding to this question or point her towards useful resources?

     

     

     

    #688
    Vicki Cowan
    Keymaster

    Hi Renee,

    I have drafted this response to your question, with some consultation from my colleagues at Beacon.  Hopefully it will help you!

    Regards,

    Vicki

    Walls are complex – they serve many functions beyond hosting your art! A key role is keeping out the weather: NZ construction these days generally uses a cavity system designed to allow any moisture that gets in to dry out.  So any changes you make to your wall system (such as adding insulation) has potential to alter the breathability of your walls and also the weather tightness of your home.  This is why many new wall insulation products such as the spray in foams are not favoured by BRANZ or the government.  In addition, you don’t really know what you have in your walls until you look!  Is there building paper  present (plays an important role in moisture management)? Is there already rot that needs to be remedied?  Are your electrical wires in good condition?

    The best way to insulate walls, a great intervention to improve the performance of your home, is to remove the linings or the cladding and do it properly following the solution set out in NZS 4246:2006 Energy Efficiency – Installing Insulation in Residential Buildings.  Ideally you’d get good advice from a trained insulation installer (you only want to do this once and so do it right) on what product is best and how to install it to optimise warmth and the other weather tight functions of the wall.

    Industry is looking hard at wall insulation, particularly in Christchurch, where relining or recladding of many earthquake damaged walls will ideally happen with wall insulation at the same time.  Industry is working on insulation installation training – research shows effectiveness is strongly related to how you’ve put insulation in.

    Beacon’s research on the value of wall insulation would indicate that any time you ‘intervene’ in your wall, even simply painting inside or stripping wall paper, it is worth considering removal of the lining and insulating.  Once you have painted/relined etc. you are unlikely to disturb that wall again for a long time – a missed opportunity to improve the warmth of your room and bring down the price of your energy bills.

    #689

    Really useful response thanks, Vicki

    Has anyone had any situations where clients are really keen on an injected product and aren’t swayed by the value of re-lining the walls vs risks of shrinkage/moisture control. How have you dealt with it?

    Also, are there cases when an injected product might be the best/only solution?

     

     

     

     

    #728
    Norman Smith
    Participant

    There is another technique being offered in Wellington by a company with a background in wall linings, plastering etc which can be described as ‘keyhole’ surgery. Here is what I understand. Holes are cut in intervals in the existing gib between the joists and the gib removed. Insulation is then inserted and the  gib replaced and re-plastered/repainted. This company is associated with a residential energy services company so will be well informed about the various other issues as outlined by Vicki. There are a number of interesting aspects to this method (1) the cut is made on an angle so it is relatively simple to fix the gib pieces back on (2) skirting boards, scotia etc are not disturbed so they are not damaged and (3) the issue of building permits as walls are being replaced does not apply. While this is not cheap and the final performance of the insulation may not be quite as good as taking off entire walls, it will cost much less.  Could be 80:20 both in cost and performance. I understand this company is looking to expand into Christchurch. I am not providing the company name as I am not aware of the hub proptocol in this regard. The organisation that really ‘nails’ retrofitting light timber frame walls will make their fortune. Regards, Norman Smith

    #738

    This is a response to Norman

    You wrote:

    (3) the issue of building permits as walls are being replaced does not apply

    This is not correct, as Schedule 1 of the Building Act now exempts underfloor and roof insulation retrofits from building consent2. However, retrofitting insulation into a wall cavity is not exempt; it either requires a building consent or specific approval from a BCA that a building consent is not required3.   Source: http://www.dbh.govt.nz/retrofitting-insulation-guidance, accessed 04/02/2013

     

    Regards

    #765
    Norman Smith
    Participant

    Hi All,

    As Adriana points out, the Building Act allows for exceptions. What I was hoping to explore was if and where in the country this method of retrofitting insulation into wall cavities would be considered to be exempt from requiring a building consent. If I understand correctly the principal driver of the requirement for a consent when replacing linings relates to their contribution to the structural integrity of the wall – remove the linings and its important to replace them with something of equal strength. So it seems to me the issue is this; if you are cutting modest sized, temporary keyholes and then replacing them would/could/should a BCA or similar waive the need for a consent?

    Further, will this vary between councils and individuals, which could become an issue if this is going to become a method more widely used? Which I guess raises the next questions, had anybody heard of the keyhole method before I raised it, what do people think of this development, what will CENs say to people who approach them to ask about it?

    Kia kaha, Norman

    #806
    Renee Rushton
    Participant

    Just wanted to say thank you for the fantastic responses to my initial question!

    Cheers,

    Renee

    #807
    Norman Smith
    Participant

    Hi Renee,

    There is always more to tease out, but a good start on both this topic and the use of the Hub. Regards, Norman

    #817

    Sorry Norman, I am not trying to contradict every single comment you post but I need to clarify something else. I would like to add to Vicki’s comments.

    I work as Eco Design Advisor within Building Services at Palmerston North City Council. Wall insulation with foams or other ‘similar’ products are far from being considered exempt from Builing Consent in Palmerston North at this stage.

    Examples of NZBC compliance issues that arise when insulating exterior walls and what Clauses they relate to are:
    B1 – Structure: bracing for example. This can also happen when lining of interior walls is affected.
    B2 – Durability: moisture could cause rot to the framing. Also, certain foams will damage certain types of electrical wiring and cause a fire hazard.
    E2 – External moisture. Very important, especially as the recommended practice for insulation retrofit is to install building paper if the wall does not have any. Other issues would be waterproofing around window frames, which in a brick veneer wall are known to leak and to rely on air flow to dry
    E3 – Internal moisture. If the product releases moisture into the building for some time after its installation
    G5 – Interior environment: if the product releases toxic fumes
    G9 – Electricity: as per issues with wiring described above
    H1 – Energy efficiency: if compliance needs to be demonstrated, for example if a new window or door is installed in an existing wall.

    You can download the Building Code Compliance Documents here: http://www.dbh.govt.nz/compliance-documents

    This type of technique also puts councils in a difficult situation because building inspectors must be able to inspect construction work in order to determine if it has been done properly. How can they inspect something that is hidden inside a wall?

    Regards
    Adriana

    #856
    Norman Smith
    Participant

    Hi Adriana,

    No problem at this end; there is much to be learned. I think you and I may be approaching this engagement from different perspectives,  which is invaluable at this start up phase of the Hub. Right now I am more interested in process rather than content – how are people sharing ideas, who is contributing, are all ‘stakeholders’ involved, where are the gaps, are most people just observing rather than participating and why, are they even tuned in yet? Have we even begun to scratch the surface of this discussion or has it been fully mined? Hence my open-ended questions seeking input from others. Having said that, content is very important to you every day at the coal face in Palmerston North working alongside other Council staff and industry. Is your experience the same or different from people in other parts of the country? How will we know? Ultimately the sum of the collective experiences should result in better practise and potentially feed back into operating policy of all Councils.

    Cheers, Norman

    #859

    Some useful things coming up here guys.

    As far as I’m concerned the conversation that’s been going on in this thread has been really valuable. Thank you to all who have contributed. As I’m not a subject expert I have mostly been staying out of it.

    I believe that content will be hugely important for the Hub (I expect it will be one of the key things that attracts people to participate), and as far as I can tell this discussion, and hopefully others like it, will be part of strengthening collective knowledge (content) and making it accessible to other participants.

    Norman, you raise an interesting point though around the issue of engagement and process, which I think for the sake of this discussion can usefully be thought of as separate from the question of content.

    It is my hope that the Hub is much more than just another social network site that people log into now and again. We have enough of those already! It was always intended to be more than that and I would like to see it become a platform for a group of people with a set of shared principles (advice should be based on good practice/good science, independent and accessible) and objectives  (improving households access to high quality, independent advice for the sake of facilitating change) to collaborate and look for common solutions.

    At this stage participation on the site IS fairly low (but it is increasing – and I think good content will help with that). For this reason it has so far been a little tricky to facilitate the “process” discussion on line.

    However, this discussion is timely, as I am particularly interested in how we can continue the discussion we started at the original workshop (almost exactly a year ago), now that we have created the foundation for the Hub (i.e. got the funding for the pilot, set up the site infrastructure).

    For all those who were at the workshop last year, there was a lot of excitement about the possibility inherent in the Hub. How do you think we can re-activate that discussion now the mechanics are in place?? Can we do it online, or do we need another mechanism?

    Also, what is the most useful part of the dialogue in this thread? How can we make it useful for other practitioners? For you, what it most important: content or engagement/collaboration?

    Really keen to hear your thoughts.

    Sally

     

    #860
    Vicki Cowan
    Keymaster

    In the case of Christchurch City Council building consents, the Council has advised that as long as the installation complies with NZS 4246: 2006 a Building Consent is not required (In practice this means a batt or similar product installed and building paper must be installed if not already in place- and if retrofitting from the inside this means stapling it into the cavity, as described in the standard).

    In case people haven’t seen it yet, EECA and MBIE have just released a new guide on retrofitting wall insulation – with Christchurch in mind in particular.  In my view anyway, this is an improvement on the 4246: 2006 approach, and hopefully since MBIE has endorsed it, Consent Authorities will consider not requiring building consent for installations that comply with it.  The link to the new guide is: http://www.eeca.govt.nz/resource/guide-retrofitting-wall-insulation

    #861
    Paul Hansen
    Participant

    Kia ora people,

    In my experiance in the trade, when asked to look at doing walls as part of a complete package for people in a retrofit scenario I always stressed the following.

    The ceiling and under floor will make the biggest differnce. So therefore tackle these areas first and do them well and upgrade the ceiling by as high an R-value as the budget allows (ie by several points over the minimum standard).

    Then sit the first winter out and judge the difference made in house warmth. The cost of retro fitting walls, unless part of a general make over/maintenance where the wall lining will be coming off anyway, is probably similar or higher than doing both the ceiling & under floor combined. Once the key hole install is finished then you still need to make good the holes in the wall linings , paint etc.

    It will be hit and miss to a degree as you won’t get a keyhole into every stud/nog space.

    Yes, polystyrene does react with the white outer coating on your electrical wiring and you are meant to use a purple coated electrical cable to negate this issue (this has been around in the NZ market for some time, guessing at 10-15 years) so most retro fitting will not be into this type of cable coating.

    90% plus clients were happy with the result from the under floor and HIGH R-VALUE CEILING to not bother with getting into the walls until a general reno was about to occur.

    I would also contend that the next area to tackle at a cheaper budget cost would be air ingress from leaking joinery and interior/exterior claddings, disused open fire place chimney’s (a virtual high pressure vacuum of house warmth!) and the lovely topic of down lights also sucking out heated air.

    ka kite

    Paul Hansen

    #863
    Norman Smith
    Participant

    Hi Paul and all…. is there a building scientist in the house?

    The ceiling and underfloor are obviously where to start and staging the upgrade process by installing insulation there and experiencing the impact over the next winter is the way to go.

    Your comment  “The ceiling and under floor will make the biggest difference” is an interesting one – hence my call for a building scientist. Once the ceiling and underfloor have been upgraded does this then make the walls and windows the weak points in the building envelope? I would think yes.

    Agree with your comments about air ingress except in terms of cost effectiveness and benefit I would put it first, ahead of any insulation. Its one of those situations where everyone  says weatherising, yes, yes, but very few people do it thoroughly, even professional installers. It is just so UN-sexy. It also takes a surprising level of understanding of building construction and skills with caulking guns etc, and of course time.

    It just so happens that for a ‘case study’ I am about to undertake a serious weatherising attack on an exposed house in Wellington where its not possible to install any insulation. We will be documenting in some detail, and perhaps making a short film, of what we do (I think people will be surprised) and then reviwing the impact.

    In my experience I don’t think anythink quite like this has been done before. Also, and I may be wrong, while there are bits and pieces published  – e.g. http://www.beaconpathway.co.nz/files/docs/HomeSmart_Renovations_homeowner_newsletter_Mar09.pdf – I haven’t come across a comprehensive and illustrated resource covering all aspects of weatherisation. What have I missed?

    Perhaps I should ask EECA to help produce this and put it on their website!
    Cheers, Norman

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